[ 00:00:01 ]Hello, dear listeners! Very warm welcome to the Partner Marketing Podcast. My guest for today's episode is Marcel Chaudron. Marcel is an all-time partner marketing rock star in the industry for over 20 years operating out of the Netherlands he has worked on network side at agencies on client side has set up his own business and works now as well as a consultant for partner marketing he brings a wealth of experience and insights to our talk now hello Marcel it's great having you today in the partner marketing podcast welcome hey good morning Mattia so yeah I think it feels quite good and welcome for and thanks for having me on this on this exciting podcast so great great having you a long time no speak so it's really really good to have you here now you are a affiliate marketing partner marketing rock star you are in the industry since 2002 we have actually worked together quite a bit we know each other for 15 years right maybe that's interesting for people to know as well now you've been in in the affiliate and partner marketing space for so long what are the biggest changes you've seen over this time you'd say I think the biggest changes you know and I so what you what you got your mention I'm over you know I think starting back in 2002 right The biggest change is you know from the beginning up to now, it's really the technology that we've been seeing.

[ 00:01:30 ] So when I actually started back in those days 2003 actually it's quite funny story. It was actually before or more what is the reason I joined Trade over back in 2002 was that I was working for a small advertising agency and in in the Netherlands, and we were setting up some kind of online marketing business, and we had a client-it was the Amazon Amsterdam University and they wanted to have people signing up for their open days. Right? So they want to have students, you know, signing up, and then they can send emails that you know there was an open day for for the university and then we did some old school media booking so we we did place banners on on different websites and then we realized okay now we need to of course need to track the the activation that we did so we really went old school you know because I set it up with one of my former colleague and both we worked at a web analytic company so we thought okay we can use web analytics but we also would like to get some more further insights so what we actually did and this is really old school we had around 13 or 15 different websites we booked in exposure or bannering and together with University We set up 15 different landing pages, so every site that we booked exposure, we had a different landing page and a different URL. So if somebody signed up right, they went to a different landing page. Hence, we could actually then see the results for each individual booking we did. And I think it was quite successful; you know, I think at that time the client really liked the fact that we could see, 'Okay, this was working.' What this wasn't working so we actually got new budget for a new campaign.

[ 00:03:22 ] And then we thought, 'Okay, well, we can't have 25-30 different landing pages moving forwards so then I actually started searching Online and then I came into contact with another former colleague of mine who was actually using Tradedoubler as a publisher, so he was a publisher. He actually showed me the interface of Tradedoubler, and you know for me that was mind-blowing-that was exactly what what we needed. But to be quite honest, instead of using Tradedoubler, I actually applied for a role at Trade over because I thought, you know, that was really looking it's a good move, that was a good move, um, um, it was quite good because you know, actually um requested a demonstration, so somebody from Trade over the Netherlands came to our office he did a demonstration.

[ 00:04:05 ] And I was so in love with the fact that you could measure everything, um, instead of doing everything manually, um, so yeah, I applied for the role and I think two weeks later I was working working as an account manager for uh, for Trade Over, yeah. So, the technology is the is the thing you think you that has changed much what like the partners um we are working with today compared to back in the days? How has that changed? Yeah, a lot, you know, uh, especially in the beginning when uh actually Google search came up, right? So there were no agencies doing search so we had a lot of uh, search uh, that was actually a big part of affiliate marketing, actually.

[ 00:04:46 ] you know when that was taking over by the by the agencies you know you saw later like 2012 maybe if i remember 13 with programmatic advertising right i think it was a bit the same exactly because we also i think i think the good thing about a field and why i love it so much you know we were and i think it sounds arrogant but we were one of the innovators right so all the all the publishers you know the new ones like search you know bannering and that all all then was taken over by others for example um price comparison was huge you know also on the the travel like the meta search and then clients and agencies they thought hey that that Is great, so actually they set up with their own, uh, price comparison, uh, department, so that was also taking away from the, from the affiliate space.

[ 00:05:43 ] But the good thing I see now in the last couple of, you know, year and a half is that that's actually going back to affiliate right? So, uh, with the Google Shopping CSS which is the mid-funnel, you know, price comparison, then it's actually coming back into the affiliate space again. And I think that's a very good, uh, move, you know, that is because it is performance-based, and um, yeah, I actually remember when back in the days I don't remember exactly when that was. But when criteria started as a publisher, it was very small. Retargeting back, yeah, yeah, it's huge and an own channel by itself. But also, I think um what happened, what changed a lot is the the size of the publisher, right? The size of the partner.

[ 00:06:31 ] In the beginning, you know we were talking to um sometimes 15-60 year-old people, you know living in their parents' house, doing all their you know search activities. And now, you know, and I think um because I listened to uh some other podcasts of yours, you know how big those kind of publishers are these days, right? How professional they are. They're hundreds or people now, they're full businesses right and i think that is also you know it the big involvement is that everything become much more professional right i had a very that's that's another funny funny story is that i was working on the client and uh within trade armor and one of our biggest biggest publisher went on holiday during the summer and then and then the results went down because they just had that time to update their website or the activities now you can imagine that and then what happened today if somebody goes on holiday and then the results go down no we prefer now speaking about partner marketing not affiliate marketing anymore Because, like the companies were working with like Clana, Microsoft, media houses-it's huge companies, right? Critio mentioned um that has evolved a lot when you now think about this evolution but looking a little bit more specifically um at the role of partner marketing networks and how these have um evolved over time. How have you leveraged this now and how have you would you say um that has changed and and where do you see them now heading for the future, so the networks themselves? Yeah, I think um the biggest key and the biggest advantage of a network is actually in the word 'network' right because um uh what I'm expecting From a network, it's that they have a network of partners which you can connect to your clients or to clients.

[ 00:08:17 ] And I think what changes is that everybody you know, really involved in the technology right? Everybody involved in how they work, you know all the biggest players, you know all the biggest partners are more or less on every single network. But the differentiation is you know, I think in two things: first of all it's service, you know client services is very important, you know as I also work on network side, I'm now working most of my time on client side and agency side; what I really prefer is a good service level because there Are things that you know, speaking from from a client perspective, we can't do in the in the platform like you know, setting up the banners; that's really something.

[ 00:09:06 ] You know if I ask something that needs to be done quite quickly because you know it's a quite fast-moving business, but also proactive, pro-sorry, proactivity that was what's very important is that since the networks are having this chunk of amazing partners like big ones, but also the niche ones; I'm expecting from a network that they will provide me, you know, benchmark information, gap analysis, just in order for me as a client from a client. perspective to grow the program plus what's very important is to is the communication and connection with the partners themselves because from a client perspective I think it's good that you have a good relationship from with the top partners right but you know there are also programs where you work with a lot of partners which you cannot you know as a two or three man person in a team connect to everything so it's very important that the networks will provide support you know the first line of communication kind of support when the when the partner has questions but what I really like it whether I think the for me the key point from a network is the proactivity of finding and connecting and growing the partners I think that is that is because they work a little work with multiple clients they have you know even much more knowledge than some some of the clients or even myself all new partners right and that's that's what I really like that I'm quite old school so I work with some with a lot of people and you know that's that's what I really like that I'm quite old school so I work with some with a lot of people and you know that's what I really like some old school partners I've been working for many years but lately there's a lot of new partners and new possibilities and channel coming coming in which are actually brought in by the networks so I think that's that's very very very important so yeah I think service is key you know service I was expecting an answer within two hours but at least you know get back to us as a from a from a client perspective and it is the the whole partnering right from a client perspective and it is the the whole partnering right so your partner your your your the client you are so your partner your your your your the client you are the network and you are the partner right so so your partner your your your your the client you are the network and you are the partner right so the publisher affiliate or how you're going to call it these days and that's very important that a network guide us as a client with new partners guide us as a client with new partners with with possibilities of getting new with with possibilities of getting new exposure plans but also new things like exposure plans but also new things like for example I work with a client where for example I work with a client where we start working with influencers I never never worked with influencers. I'm an old guy. I'm almost 50. But actually, it came from the network that brought in the opportunity to work with influencers.

[ 00:11:47 ] And apparently, it works quite good, quite well. So I'm also learning new stuff. You mentioned the three key things, kind of like the technology, the client services, and then obviously the traffic, the partners that a brand is working with through the network. Now, in the beginning, we talked and you said the technology itself has developed so much over time and is basically the biggest thing that has changed. Would you then still say that the technology is rather commodity now and it's client services and the traffic acquisition mainly? Yes and no. I'm not sure if that is an easy to understand answer. But I think it's commodity because it is vital, right? If you work with a brand, you're going to be able to do a lot of things.

[ 00:12:34 ] In partner marketing, tracking is vital. Everything should be tracked correctly, right? But I think also what we've been seeing over the last couple of years in partner marketing is that if there is an issue, there is a solution, right? So networks working on a solution. Like, for example, if there's something negative about cookie overrides or how do you say it? What was the name? Deduplication. Sorry? Deduplication, maybe? No, I mean, I mean, you know, when, sorry, I know, cookie dropping, right? What we had in the past. And then what I really like is that the networks came up with solutions, with basket-free, soft cookies, that kind of things. So if there is an issue, I think quite fast, the industry will find a solution for it and then grow and grow and grow.

[ 00:13:31 ] So I think if you work with a brand, you're going to be able to do a lot of things. If you work with a bad technology, then you're out, right? That's impossible these days. Maybe we go in there because I wanted to ask that later, but it fits now quite well, as you mentioned that because you were speaking about cookie dropping. Back in the days, affiliate marketing was rather intransparent, right? So brands didn't even see what kind of partners they're working with or where exactly the traffic is coming from. That has changed now, right? Obviously. But this whole topic of fraud in affiliate marketing, especially when you compare to other channels, how would you say that this has changed over time? I think, first of all, it is the technology that actually solved most of the problems.

[ 00:14:20 ] But I think, and probably you know me by now, is that one of my biggest frustrations is that if something's happening, you know, in your affiliate channel, fraud, then it's everywhere in the news, right? So, people are now people are sending out bad new sales, but there are so many other great things that we see in the eh, in the affiliate space. And I think we should push more on the solutions. You know, okay. There was an issue and there was a solution. And I think, when the globalization starts, you know, within the industry, you know, you get a lot of traffic from vague countries all over the world. I think that's a big issue. So I would that was a problem for us in the industry right um but the technology really supported us in to filter those kind of um fraud activities that we had but you know i think i've been working on so many programs and it sounds a bit arrogant but i work on so many programs the amount of actually fraud is minimum is really minimum and of course you know um there can also be be fraud if you do a click campaign on a big big publisher house or if you do uh google campaigns you know things you know things go go wrong sometimes right people makes makes mistakes but also on the other hand and that's also what i also try to explain sometimes it is not only the problem from uh or that a partner is doing fraud it is also the consumer try to you know um yeah obviously

[ 00:16:02 ] get the system you know a good example uh is um what i see a lot is that uh people are connected to multiple cashback sites and what the consumer thinks sometimes hey i click on this one i click on that one and i click on that one and then i start start complaining about not getting three times discount or three times the cashback but in the vast majority of the users of for example cashback websites don't even know that there is an affiliate link behind it that tracks everything because the only thing what The consumer thinks, 'I want to get my points. I want to get my loyalty. I want to get my discount-for example or my cashback in this case. So sometimes it's also a bit of how do you say it? They just don't understand the tracking and they... don't understand how things things are working and try to fool the system, right? And getting more discounts. Well, in the end, I think you always have the benefit of the business model, right? It's CPA-so it's cpa so it's um pay for results only. Everybody always has the chance to validate sales in the end approve the sales... um which is a great fallback solution with which you can fix if something has gone wrong. Before, right? So I think that's one of the big advantages of the channel now. You already got a little bit further so, so outside a pure network perspective, you have worked on network side; you are working with agencies; you work as a consultant um on brand client side.

[ 00:17:33 ] What would you say are the biggest challenges um for and advantages maybe as well um for each of these three working in partner marketing right? So you already picked a bit on that when you when you spoke about the consumer behavior that's obviously something brands are looking into, but when you see these three um essential parts of the whole scenery what do You think how's their view? Um, I think better and better, but I think there's still some education needed. So, I think what is a very good trend what I've been seeing now for the last five years is that more and more agencies are building up their own um partner marketing departments, which for me is a very good sign because in the positive way, you know, okay, we have a trainee, you know, or we have you know a junior person uh that person will be responsible for uh for setting up you know the uh the partner marketing activities uh but more and more agencies are building you know their own their own um partner marketing department and the change i see because i know i was part of building such such such an organization at an agency is that in the beginning you know they they still sell us you know some kind of cowboys you know affiliate cowboys what are they doing but now definitely the last two years there is a good collaboration among the teams so for example um a very good example yesterday i um we work with a client and um we want to implement css for example um what we actually did together with the client and the search team we had a call with a css partner and then you know stick the heads together okay how does css works you know how does it work compared To the uh, the search activities and the shopping activities you know, done by by the clients and then you can see the the synergies and then you can see that ah, okay now that that is how how how it works. Instead of you know me um presenting this is actually you know, together with the search team, the client, and the CSS partner uh, together come to a very great strategy in moving forwards, you know. I could not imagine that happened a couple of years years ago because all the channels were fighting with each other right; all the channels were fighting with each other because all the channels were fighting with each other, right.

[ 00:20:01 ] Yeah, I'm doing search, I'm doing display, I'm doing programmatic, and I'm doing uh i'm doing uh partner marketing. And now and that's that's I think the best sign I see people it sounds a bit weird respecting us and we work together because they see the added value right in, in, in the past was okay well traffic from affiliate is cheap you know and low-value traffic, and now it's becoming much more into the upper and mid-funnel like for example, CSS partners I see that as mid-funnel but also uh working together with for example a programmatic team um where we do uh newsletters, we do articles uh and then together with the programmatic team they are buying banners and display on the same page right on big big media houses so i think that is that is that is that is very good uh that's that's what you mean this integrative approach basically exactly exactly and that is i think what we should do because partner marketing is not only partnering with client agency and and affiliate but it's also partnering up with the rest of the team right with partnering up with the rest of all the channels because the ultimate goal from a former client is to drive sales you know uh against the best robots for example and you can't you know and then maybe people I disagree, but you can't do that if all the channels are starting to compete with each other, right? And start not talking to each other. I think it's very important that you keep uh keep on the conversation channel mix when you can. Now go oh, sorry guys, no go on corn because you know uh also coming back again to the consumer behavior, you know, and consumer is not only on on Google, consumers not only on uh on a price comparison, the consumer is not only on there's there's a lot of things going going going on right there.

[ 00:21:48 ] I think in the past we did some we did some kind of research uh when I still worked at Trader Joe's, I think there was around 20 something. Touch points you know from a consumer to actually buy something you know-new consumers and you have existing consumers, but still existing consumers. And I think, you know, let's not forget that in this whole area, the consumer has the power. The consumer decides where, what, and how to buy it, you know. And we try as a channel to be some kind of support in the overall user journey for this. Would you say as well that this-what you just described is consumer behavior and thinking about the consumer, where to buy, how to get in touch with them? Would you say that this is the biggest challenge for the brands?

[ 00:22:32 ] And do you think as well that brands usually understand this behavior of consumers across the whole acquisition funnel and the different strategies and channels that need to be applied and, as you described, interact together in order to drive the best results? Do you see that? Or like, first of all, do you think that is the biggest challenge? Or and secondly, do you do you see this like do you do you think that brands really understand that and adapt to that? They're getting much better and better. So always when I start on a new client or when I'm involved in a new new client, my first question is always describe your customer, describe your ideal customer. And I'm not getting getting always the answer because then they look at they look at each other and say, OK, but why?

[ 00:23:27 ] You know, you are for partner marketing. You know, what size do you want? I say, well, for me, it's quite interesting. If you have an understanding about your ideal consumer, you know, we can actually build a strategy around it. Right. And because a lot of things, you know, we just, you know, put on brand shirts, put on this, put on that, put on this, but then hoping that your customer will will will get it. But I think with the current technology, I think we are getting there. Right. I think we're getting there to see the full journey. To see, you know, where the consumer is going, you know, what kind of touch points are there. There's a lot of technology out there.

[ 00:24:06 ] You know, you can do it in Google, but there's also other systems where you can track it. The only challenge I see is the amount of data because there is a lot of data, especially if you work with a very big, big brands with a lot of data. How do you distinguish? OK, what is the data that we need in order to opt out? I think that's the biggest challenge. Well, I think the tools are there. Right. But it needs a lot of groundwork first and then obviously quite an investment, not only into one channel, but into the whole setup of performance or even digital marketing. Yeah, I think that is a special knowledge that you need to have to oversee the whole picture. I'm not good at that. Right.

[ 00:24:56 ] I'm quite, you know, siloed. I'm on my own stuff. I work with with with other with other channels. But, you know, to see the complete picture, I think that's something that brands need to understand and and invest much more. But then don't forget competition. Right. Because a lot of brands that I've been working with in the past, they focus on OK, on the products that sell the product, blah, blah, blah. And then I always go, yeah, but look, you know, you especially when it's not a brand, but more or less an e-shop. There are there's a lot of competition out there. Right. So I had a lot of these discussions in the past about OK, yeah, we don't want to work with cashback sites or we don't want to work with voucher code sites.

[ 00:25:38 ] If you do not have a voucher code, that's fine. But, hey. Your competition is there. So I always use my own example. I'm addicted to Adidas superstar shoes, sneakers. Right. I'm using that, you know me, you know, for the last 20 years. You know, I'm I'm wearing those those sneakers. So there is no competition between Adidas or Nike from my perspective. Right. There's only one one shoe. But I can I can buy it on 20, 25 different or, you know, even globally. I can buy it everywhere. Right. So my search starts with, OK, maybe I can get some cash back. Maybe there is a voucher. No, I'm not. I'm also a consumer. Right. So I'm also checking that. So if if.

[ 00:26:27 ] If an e-tailer, you know, really wants me as a as a as a as a client and probably I buy four pairs of shoes a year. Right. And then they need to understand my behavior as well. Right. So I'm checking I'm a consumer. I'm checking the best price because I'm not checking quality because the shoe should be the same everywhere. Right. So I'm checking for the for the for the best price and delivery time, et cetera, et cetera. So those kind of things are quite interesting for me to. I think it's a super, super interesting perspective you're giving because this like I have had so many conversations, but not so many like these where really the consumer and the end client, so to say, is put into the focus and their behavior and about how to do that.

[ 00:27:15 ] Exactly. Yes. It's always other things that are interfering there. That's very, very interesting. Thank you. Like just picking on that exactly what you said, because I wanted to come now to. To kind of like strategy and best practices from a from a brand perspective, because I think that's something that listeners are most interested in. Is that kind of like the secret of building a strong and long term affiliate marketing program from a from a from a brand's perspective? Do you mean taking the consumer focus, this this thinking from the consumer or what would you generally say is the secret of building or. Or is this is the core, the essentials of building a long term, successful affiliate program from a brand perspective?

[ 00:28:05 ] I think it starts with the consumer in mind, the consumer at the center, but also, you know what we just mentioned, you know, it's not easy because it's psychology. You know, there's a lot of data that you need to get. It's pure marketing, right, as well. But if that is set right, then I think a long and successful part of marketing is with the partners, right? It is very important to know your partners, to understand their needs. Right. And in the past, and it's also coming a bit back in, this conversation in the past, there were like brands. And then in a small area, you have the publishers, but the publishers driving your results or the partners driving your results. That is has been changed a lot. Right.

[ 00:28:51 ] So I think we need to everybody in this whole partnership should be equal, equal. Right. And of course, there's a lot of hygiene factors. What we discussed, like technology, technology needs to be in place. But I think the relationship and the between the brands, the agencies, you know, the network, and partner, that is key. That is, that is key.

[ 00:29:37 ] I always ask when I come up with, again, all the new clients, you know, OK, these are your top ten partners. When was the last time you have been in contact with them, you know, or can you actually name the person who is in charge of those those publishers? And you you will be surprised that they don't know. Right. Is that a task for the brand? I mean, the brand themselves shouldn't that be rather on the networks or maybe the agency as well? Yes. Yes. But I think also as a brand, you need to understand a bit your top. You know, if you work with 500 partners, you don't need to have them all. But at least the top five, let's say move to the top five. You know, you need to know that.

[ 00:30:17 ] Right. But even even as a colleague, you know what your contact person, you know, what are their hobbies, what are they like? It's it's relationship built. It's it's it's all about. It's about building relationships and trust, because even though as a brand, you're not alone, there's competition, there are multiple brands. And a partner, you know, I work one of my colleagues these days, you know, she worked at a at a at a big, sorry, partner. And she told me that they had to work with two thousand merchants sometimes right on their platform. So how do you then stand up as your brand on that platform? So you also need to, I think. There needs to be effort from from from from both sides, you know, not not that, OK, I'm the brand, I have the money.

[ 00:31:03 ] So you you you do what I say. No, I'm also expecting that a partner say, OK, you have the money, but hey, we can do this, this and this and this to bring the best value of that money to get the highest ROAS. When you what you say, if I summarize that, you basically say you need to get the basics right. The technology. The tracking, the whole technical set up, you need to take it seriously and invest time. So, like really paying attention, thinking about what you want to do, taking that seriously. And then, thirdly, but that's something that you said already three or four times now that it's a relationship game. It's, it's, it's still in the end very much a people business.

[ 00:31:51 ] Well, what the term 'partner marketing' says by itself, that you need to engage, right? And share. Is that right? What do you say like that? Yeah, no, I completely agree. Yeah, yeah. But then now still there could be very, very different strategies, right? Because there is a brand that just starts with partner marketing. Then you're like when you think about a lifecycle of an of a partner marketing program, then you have this ramp-up phase where the program grows a lot. And then you obviously have partner programs that are live for like literally 20 years. Very well-known brands where you have completely different focus areas where it's much more on optimizing efficiency, the return on investment, squeezing in the different corners on how to even make that better, like one dimension.

[ 00:32:44 ] Another dimension is obviously that you have big brands like most of the partners would want to work with Adidas, Nike, Ikea, etc. Or you have a very small brand, right? Not everybody. Not everybody knows, which could be a completely different strategy. You have a struggle. You need to make an effort that partners actually even recognize you, as you just described in your other examples. Would you say that the strategies from a brand perspective in these different cases differ a lot or would you still say in the end this is very similar? I think the basics are similar in this case. But if you are an unknown brand. And you need to fight harder, you need to, you need to, if you just need to pay higher commissions, then is it just more costly?

[ 00:33:32 ] No, yes. I think in the beginning, yes, because you need to convince, you know, a partner that they will add you to their website and start promoting you where they also, especially if it's pure CPA, then they don't know if their investment will be paid off with the results they get. Because. It's an unknown brand. And I think also, and I'm not sure if you like that, what I'm not going to say, but affiliate marketing is not built up from the beginning to do brand building. Right. So I think that's other stuff. There's other, you know, I'm not saying search, but there are other channels much better in building a brand. Right. TV, radio, for example. Right. Of course, you're right. But still, of course, from a network's perspective, I say that you get the brand.

[ 00:34:25 ] You get the branding for free on top. Exactly. But then I completely agree. But then you need to first have activated the partners with your brand. So and if they don't know, then you need to just need to need to need to fight harder and set clear expectations. You know, don't ask, don't expect goals where you just start. You know that, OK, we launch, we launch the program, you know, and in two weeks, you know, everybody's happy. And things will go smoothly. It's not going to happen. I think just set clear expectations towards the client. But also, the client needs to need to need to understand that, that it will take time. Right. And what you just mentioned, like the whole partner is a people's business.

[ 00:35:10 ] And that's also why we need to spend a lot of time on because if you do other channels, not not to be disrespectful to other channels, they go sometimes into a system. They tweak on a couple of buttons. And, you know, like programmatic. And of course, there's a lot of research before. But they go right. And they and it's for example, in my day-to-day life, I need to contact 50 partners on a daily basis to get things on their website and to get it. So in that case, not everything is is automated on the on the on the affiliate. But going back to your initial question. What I normally normally do with it. On a very unknown brand is we focus on targeted robots, for example.

[ 00:35:59 ] So if you say, OK, well, we start we have we have a robot of of X. Let's also try exposure. Let's also try CPC. Let's also try other remuneration models. Not only not not only pure CPA, because then you will not go on the go on the way. Right. And then accept and do test and learn with with some partners. You know. And then you invest. If it doesn't work, then you go to another partner. But then in total, you know, your robot should be on target level. But do not expect miracles from the beginning. It's about the visibility. It's about the visibility and the recognition. But big brands also have a problem because they are not alone. You know, there's a lot of competition going, even if you're on a like if you're selling Adidas shoes.

[ 00:36:49 ] There's so many competition. So you need to be there as well. So it's also hard work. It's not easy. I'm picking back on something that you just said now as well when you said, 'like', not everything is automated. I think it's one of the characteristics as we tipped into already that affiliate marketing, or partner marketing, is a real partner game and requires a lot of relationship. It's a people's business. Right. It's a lot of work. It's quite much more than maybe other channels where you have only one publisher or you have only one platform and you have a lot of technology that helps you in order to automatically run campaigns. It doesn't work really like that in in partner marketing, which obviously makes it more complex.

[ 00:37:38 ] On the other hand, it gives loads of opportunities working with all these different partners. Now, looking forward and especially with AI becoming more and more important, what would I say would be trends there? And do you see with AI an opportunity to finally automate partner marketing more than it is today? Because so many have tried so often, right, that we say, okay, like now it's the time to really automate partner marketing. In the end, it always stays this people business. Right. And which is, of course, on the one hand, like you want to automate, you want to be more efficient. On the other hand, it's like the source of the success. Right. It's like innovation, as we just said. But do you think now AI could be the one that could be the game changer for that?

[ 00:38:28 ] Hard to say. I think from my perspective, AI, what you see now is really, you know, content-driven. So, you know, partners creating content on AI, you know, consumers going to ChatGPT, right, searching for information, searching for products. But if they really can automate the day-to-day work, I'm not so sure. I think what's possible, of course, you know, what we already have been automated is like sales validation, you know, transaction inquiries, reporting. So, there's a lot of stuff that, you know, we needed to do manually back in the days, right, in 2002, which is now automated. Right. If you have a good SSD tracking, for example, you can even, you know, send information to the network about, you know, if there's a problem. Or if an order has been canceled.

[ 00:39:18 ] So, that's really great because then we have more time for optimizing and for creating a great relationship. Many of these things are about efficiency. Exactly. Exactly. There's efficiency. But really, I do not see on a short term that AI will replace me, for example, or will replace the affiliate manager or will replace the contact from partner. What it can do, what it can be doing, right, is creating the content. Right. So, if there is a product release, you know, we can be in discussion with a partner where in the past they probably need to write. Well, we send them a briefing. They write content. Now, probably they're going to use AI. Right. And, of course, they need to rewrite it and check it. So that can save some time.

[ 00:40:06 ] But the whole relationship, I don't think that will be replaced by AI. Maybe I'm wrong. What about certain traffic channels, traffic verticals? Do you think there is traffic channels that are under threat, like vouchers, for example, that they will not really be as a vertical in partner marketing anymore because you find we can just, like, go to your favorite AI tool and say, get me the best Adidas superstar sneakers with the best offer and the best price. And I don't know what else is important for you with the quickest delivery time. And then you just, like, get there. You get this offer, potentially. Yes, I think. And there is no affiliate in between anymore, right? Yeah. Or the AI can be the affiliate, right? In that case. Yeah, sure.

[ 00:40:55 ] Or the AI tool. I think there are always, you know, and I'm coming back to our marketing, there are always early adopters, right? So, people who start using that. But, you know, I don't see my parents, for example, start using an AI tool to find the best deal. They still go, they still go to Google or they still go to their favorite page or to the cashback program, right? Finding the deal. But, yes, there will be a chunk of consumers start using that and they will. But, yeah, I need to see it. You know, I can't predict the future. And it's always a bit scary because then I checked, okay, how do I use it myself? I don't use it. But, you know, I'm only one, right?

[ 00:41:43 ] There are millions of people around the world. We're using it quite a bit. I use it personally and we use it quite a bit here in Trade Doubler as well. Mainly at the moment in client services. So, we are using tools to optimize and automate workflows. You would have loved that. I'm sure. There is AI now that is even writing draft emails for clients. So, the account manager starts in the morning and there's like 15, 20 like automated emails if you have to send reports or stuff, right? That saves tons of time. And we are now connecting our own data, which means that you can do publisher recommendations. You can do automated reports and these kind of things, right? That helps. But what drives me, right, is all of these things in the end are rather efficiency focused.

[ 00:42:38 ] But I'm looking for revenue focused, what could be the change? That's where my questions are coming from. But I had so many conversations and haven't got really so much further. No, I think I'm a bit more in line with you, right? It is an efficiency game. So, you know, it will support us in, as I say, like content or, you know, the client service team writing emails. Writing advertising text, you know, for clients. That is great, you know. Doing maybe A-B testing on certain creatives. That's great. But then, of course, what you just mentioned is the connection about how users will then change their behavior in order to drive revenue for a client. That is for me also a big blind spot.

[ 00:43:25 ] I probably know there are a lot of people out there who already have an opinion and have an idea. But for me, that is still abracadabra. Now I am coming up with a question just like, yes, now we're getting towards the end. Something a little bit more fun, maybe a bit more personal. What would you say is a mistake that you saw in partner marketing that you have learned most from as a kind of like final piece of learning from you? I think it was a personal mistake I did. And that was probably 2005. So, you know, I learned from it. Is that I was working on a client. And then we did what I mentioned in the beginning. We didn't have all the insights of the users.

[ 00:44:12 ] We just had to push our journey. And one of the things I did, you know, I was quite young at that time. I was running the affiliate program. And I just, you know, went to the system to optimize. And then I wanted to do a cleanup. And I just want to, I removed all the partners that didn't drop any sale, you know, in the last couple of whatever. So it's quite an easy task, you know, going to Excel, blah, blah, blah. And then I removed all those partners. And then sales dropped. And nobody had any idea. What's going on? You know, even the top partners were driving less sales. So what's going on? And then we realized, but at that time, you know, we didn't have full insights, was that, you know, all the partners, or not all, but some of the partners I actually removed from the program, they drove the first click and the initiative, you know, for a consumer.

[ 00:45:01 ] So, you know, I think, you know, it took us at that time maybe two weeks, right, to figure it out. And then everything went back. You know, that is a mistake I would never do. You know, I would just never go into a program and remove publishers because they are not driving sales. Because you never know, if you do not have the data, if they are somewhere in the funnel, right? It describes very well what you have been talking about earlier about this connection across the user journey funnel, right? Exactly. And what is actually the touchpoints that are driving sales that convert then in the end somewhere. But they have been there. They have been multiple hands in that. Yeah. Now you have a lot of insight, right?

[ 00:45:43 ] You can see it on the attribution, you know, in the different tools. But at that time, you know, I just, okay, well, a lot of clicks, no sales, remove it. Right? Great. Learning, never do that again. Thank you so much, Marcel. That was really, really interesting. You're welcome. Now, at the end, I have three final questions that I ask all my guests a little bit more on the personal side. I hope that is okay for you. Yeah, okay, sure. Give it to me. And I have to admit, it's a little bit selfish. I use it for myself, asking you now, what is the best book you ever read? I need some inspiration as well. Yeah, I think the best book. And our listeners too. Yeah, the best book I ever read.

[ 00:46:22 ] Actually, I first read it in English. Then it was so interesting. I actually bought it also in Dutch. I think I probably read it three or four times. It is Getting Things Done from David Allen. It's this kind of, you know, way of working. Not getting stressed about all the stuff that you need to do. Right? And it's really planning everything. It's a very simple process. I probably can talk about in a different podcast all about, you know, how it's implemented. You have. I think I remember now. You gave me this book as a present once. Have you read it? Yeah. Yeah, of course I read it. Yeah, yeah. It rings a bell. And I remember. Yes. Yes. I think that's the best learning. You know, I think it's a bestseller.

[ 00:47:08 ] A lot of people using it. It's just kind of, you know, productivity way of working. And I actually do it every single day. I have actually that in another system where I actually follow that through every single day. There are also a lot of pitfalls with it. But, you know, let's not spend a lot of time on the Getting Things Done methodology. Now then another one. The same for any tool or an app that you would say. Which one is your favorite? Which one you can't live without? It's Evernote. And that's connected, actually. Connected to the book. So it's Evernote. I'm not surprised. It's a productivity app. You know, if I do not have access, I have probably, you know, the highest subscription I can get, you know, for Evernote.

[ 00:47:50 ] I have it on all my devices. I cannot live without Evernote. Everything is there. My whole life. If you find my login of Evernote, you know me. Everything is there. But also my day-to-day life. My day-to-day activities. Everything is stored in Evernote. Great. If I remember correctly, the really cool thing about Evernote is that it's connected between different tools and systems, right? So you can basically use it everywhere. I love synchronization, you know. So I can update it on my iMac, you know, when I'm on the road. I can see it on my iPhone, on my iPad, and it syncs very fast. So I love that. Good. The last one. I know the question as well. I still ask it.

[ 00:48:33 ] If you were not a partner marketing rock star, what else would you be doing? Then I would be a real rock star. A real rock star. I'm a musician. So I'm a musician. I would love, you know, that's my ultimate dream, but I'm getting old now, is to, you know, touring around the world with a famous rock band and be on stage. Stadium concerts. But you still go on stage, right? Yeah. But it's a small stage, right? It's an amateur band. I think the biggest audience we had was about 2,000 people. At a festival, which was nice. It's fantastic. But I would love to be on stage. I saw you on stage at our get-together there once in Stockholm, right? That was brilliant. With a cover band, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[ 00:49:14 ] That will be my ultimate dream, right? But hey. It's good that you have a good hobby, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Semi-professional, at least. Not making money with it. Spending a lot of money on it, on equipment. But yeah, and actually, last night, because we rehearse every single concert, we rehearsed every single week. So we have our own rehearsal room here in the Netherlands. So every Thursday evening, we spend a couple of hours playing our songs. Perfect. Marcel, thank you so much. That was a really good talk. Yeah, thanks. Thank you for all these insights and stories you shared. Thank you so much. Great talking to you. I really liked it. Well, thanks for having me. It was an honor. So, thank you a lot. Talk soon.