[ 00:00:00 ]Warm welcome to today's Partner Marketing Podcast. How relevant is partner marketing for major international brands like HelloFresh or Expedia? How do they use partner marketing to scale their business? In today's episode, I will be speaking with Sabrina Fiorini, Global Associates Director at HelloFresh. Stay tuned about her passion for partner marketing and hear what is the elephant in the room. Let's get started. Welcome to the Partner Marketing Podcast.

[ 00:00:35 ] Welcome, Sabrina. It's great to have you here today. Hello. Thank you for having me. You are Global Associates Director at HelloFresh. What does a Global Associates Director do at HelloFresh? That is a very good question. So my role is part of the Growth Partnerships Team at HelloFresh, which comprises affiliates, partnerships, and influencers. And as an Associate Director for Partnerships, I'm essentially responsible for affiliates and partnerships marketing. So for all these different plays, so to say. So there's, Influencer is a separate, we have a separate Associate Director for Influencer and then I'm responsible for the strategy and the development of affiliates and partnerships. Very good. Can you describe a little bit about what HelloFresh does? What problem do they solve? Yeah. So the mission of HelloFresh is to change.

[ 00:01:27 ] The way that people eat and we'll do that through high value food solutions. So I think the most commonly known is the meal kit box. So customers can pick from different recipes, different meal options, and have the, all the ingredients and all the recipes delivered directly to their doorstep on a weekly basis. And then I just order something there and you send it to me, like the receipt together with the ingredients and how to do it. And I have my meal prepared. For myself. Exactly. Well, so exactly. So in the app, in the app or on the desktop, you choose what you want to cook. Okay. Then you get everything, including the recipes and ingredients, and then you kind of cook them and enjoy the fresh meal. All kinds of foods, whatever you like.

[ 00:02:12 ] Yes. So there's a wide choice, including special dietary requirements. So, yeah. And HelloFresh does everything themselves. So you buy these ingredients as well, and you package all that and you send it to the consumer, to the user, as well. Yes, exactly. Perfect. And the business model is then basically selling, buying, selling, putting it together, and creating value by putting these recipes and packages together. Yes. And so it's, it's worth mentioning that it's a subscription-based model. So essentially, as a new customer, you subscribe and then you can have big flexibility, but essentially you could order meals every week or you could pause if you're on holiday or if you don't have time to cook, and you can choose how many. But I could do every day as well if I want. Yes.

[ 00:02:58 ] Okay, perfect. Very good. And now you're responsible for partner marketing at HelloFresh as Global Associate Director. What is the target when you do partner marketing? What do you want to achieve with partner marketing? I think that, in terms of the primary goal is really to acquire new customers through affiliates or partners, which we would describe as partners, other brands potentially that have a similar customer base. Or have a customer base that is of interest. So they sign up at HelloFresh? Yes. I guess there is some kind of welcome package or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of the, in terms of the partnerships, it really depends on what kind of partners it is and what they're trying to achieve. So we have different opportunities or different methods in which we can partner.

[ 00:03:50 ] And generally I think there's a difference depending on what the partner is looking to achieve. So it depends on what the partnership then looks like. Okay. I understand. Okay. And when you now look at the partner marketing setup, you have, it's basically bringing new users, consumers to the website, them subscribing at HelloFresh, and then potentially buying again as well, I assume? Yes. So I think the lifetime value is an important factor for us. Okay. So the average order rate. So how many orders each new customer generates is hugely important. And it's also something that we realized can vary quite drastically between different types of partners, different types of customers. Okay, I understand. So, the lifetime value of a customer is basically the leading KPI that you're using for? Yes and no.

[ 00:04:44 ] So it's a very important KPI, but because it only develops with time, the primary metric we still look at is customer acquisition. So, yes, and then we do look at the customer campaign value, but obviously that becomes clearer over time. I think it would be very interesting to describe a little bit about the setup and the structure of partner marketing because like HelloFresh is a huge brand. You work internationally in around 20 countries maybe, I reckon. How have you structured your partner marketing activities? Yeah. So I think it's important to mention that. We operate as a matrix organization. So because we're in so many different markets, we differentiate North America and international. So in international, what I'm responsible for is essentially about 16 markets in Europe, Australia, New Zealand.

[ 00:05:44 ] And there we have local teams as well, and I'm based in our headquarter in Berlin, but we have local teams in New Zealand. So we have local partners as well. And how do you structure your partner program activities themselves? So the whole partner program, so to say, I think there is probably different types of partners you're working with and different ways of working with these different types of partners. Is that right? Yeah. And I mean, a big part of the partners is through our affiliate program. Mm-hmm. So we do have an affiliate program where we have one network that we work with in all the international markets. We work with an agency, but we also have an in-house team of account managers.

[ 00:06:36 ] And earlier this year, we essentially also structured our team to differentiate between new business development and affiliate or partner managers that look more at the account management of our partners. So, with some partners, you work directly as well? Correct. Okay. And with others, you work through the partner networks? Correct. Perfect. And these partners you work with directly, is that the same technology or how do you make sure that you can measure everything in the same way? Yeah, that's a very good question. And that's also something that we continue to develop. I think part of the reason that it differs is that with some of the partners we work with directly, there are different methods in terms of all the work. What they, the basis of the partnership.

[ 00:07:24 ] So some of our partners are really interested in generating additional revenue. So a secondary monetization opportunity for them. Other partners literally just want a unique offer, something that gives them an edge versus their competitors. So they might be more interested in having a unique discount and there's really more of a value exchange that way. And they're less interested potentially to understand, you know, the conversion rate, the CCV and so on than a typical CPA based partner. What kind of partners? Can you give us a few examples maybe of these partners that you manage directly or the ones that you have through the network? Yeah. So I'm just trying to think what would be a good example. So through the affiliate networks, I would say it's the typical types of partners that you would expect.

[ 00:08:15 ] So cashback, loyalty, content management. It's price comparison, you know, the typical verticals and where we work with directly, it's more likely to be other brands. So it might be financial institutions. Direct partnerships, other brands. Exactly. Okay. I understand. Okay. How do you manage that? Because I guess like you said, lifetime value or then the conversion obviously is targets for you. But I could think that there is maybe different value for you for different kinds of conversions. Like for example, new customers or subscriptions. Returns. Returning customers or certain target groups you may be targeting. How do you manage something like that? Yeah, it's a good question. And I think through some partners, we're able to do that more easily than others.

[ 00:09:05 ] So some partners will have targeting opportunities where we can really focus on the customer type or lookalike of a typical customers. Whereas other partners, I think it's still relatively broad where it's their customer base. And they might give us information around what their typical customer looks like. But we may have limited ability to target very specific set of their customers. Do you incentivize differently then in order to steer that a bit? That you, for example, pay a higher commission for new customers or for customers where you reckon that they have a certain lifetime value? Yes. And we mostly do it at two levels, I would say. We either do it at a vertical level. So we have different commissions depending on the customer. So, for example, on our affiliate program, we have different commissions depending on the vertical.

[ 00:09:55 ] And then with our top partners, we might also have bespoke commissions. And that takes into account the historic metrics. When you work with these different partners, do you work with all kinds of different verticals that are available in partner marketing? So you mentioned already cashback, price comparison, for example. Do you work with all verticals of partners? Or is there maybe something that you rule out from the beginning because you say, that's maybe not interesting for us? Yeah, I think there are some verticals that we rule out in the sense that, like if I try to think of an example, so internally we do a lot of display activity, native advertising, retargeting. So we tend to not work with those kinds of technology affiliates because there's a lot of overlap then with what we already do internally, which is then in other teams and in other channels.

[ 00:11:01 ] Correct. Okay. And you said as well, influencer marketing is separate? Yes. So it's part of growth partnerships, but not of my remit within partnerships. Yeah. I understand. Okay, good. What would you say is the biggest challenge that you have in partner marketing now? I think there's... I don't know. I think the typical challenges that any mature program has. So around, you know, finding new growth opportunities or new significant partners, keeping the existing partners engaged. I think that I would say it's less of a challenge because we're pretty good at that. But I think specifically around finding new partners. Would you say that the partner landscape has changed? So when you think about what you like, on the one hand, you have these direct partners that is, I guess, very spread.

[ 00:11:47 ] Brand, brand special for you because that's connected to what you do. When you look at what you manage through the network, I would imagine this is what is classical basically. Right. What do you get through the network? Do you think that has changed over time? So the traffic sources, the different kinds of publishers you're working with, or is that essentially the same in the last 10 years? So if we're looking at the last 10 years, I kind of look at both my HelloFresh and my Expedia history, and I would say it has changed. And I think it has changed mainly, I mean, some verticals are the same. So cashback and loyalty, I would say reward-based employee benefits, and so on, that those verticals are relatively stable in terms of the players as well.

[ 00:12:41 ] But there are verticals like search that were massive 10 years ago. And with the Google changes. You know, I would say those kinds of verticals have really dropped or, you know, changed in that sense. So obviously there are new ones like content, for example, bloggers, influencer marketing-you take separately, but still, you could still count it within partner marketing, I assume, right? Yes, correct. Is there any differences in the setup that you have now at HelloFresh compared to what you have made experiences with at Expedia? Or is this from a from a general setup and way of working basically the same? Is that how a major brand works? Is that a kind of like a blueprint? Or would you say this is very different?

[ 00:13:23 ] I think it will be different for every company, mostly based on the fact that each company probably has a different organizational structure. So for example, at Expedia, when I joined in 2008, I joined what was then called the distribution partnerships team. And I worked with partners across different functions. So it was affiliate marketing, but it was also white label solutions, it was API partners. And that each of these categories have grown so much that also the team structure at Expedia has changed very much. But it's also such a multi-billion dollar business that it employs dozens and dozens of people, which obviously in other enterprises or other companies is not necessary. The same size or the same requirement to have such big teams.

[ 00:14:20 ] And I think therefore also the product tools development solutions are different depending and depending on the company's need. And I would say that's probably also where I see with different companies, the difference around is partnerships a separate team? Is it a team that has its own operations team, its own product development? Is it a team that gets access to product development or is it part of marketing and it's actually part of the bigger marketing function? And I think in smaller companies probably also it's more, right, it's more, yeah. When you, both of the companies you, like you're working with, Fatal Fresh or Expedia is both very international. You yourself have worked for a long time in the UK, now you're back in Germany. Do you see big differences?

[ 00:15:15 ] Do you see differences between the different markets in how they are operated, the landscape of publishers, traffic acquisition or generally the way of working? Yeah, I think, I think there's a big difference from a, I think from a cultural perspective as well. I think also the way that people approach partnerships and relationships. I think the types of verticals I would say are different. I think they're different. I think they're different between the UK and Germany, but there's also quite a big similarity. I think it's more when we look at other markets like France, Italy, Spain. I think that's where it is still quite different. Some of the verticals that are really big in the UK and Germany, like cashback and loyalty is not as big, I would say, in some of those markets, but then some of those markets also potentially see partnership models.

[ 00:16:14 ] Yeah. But they require CPM or CPC. And don't focus so much on pure CPA. When you look at the results now that partner marketing is delivering, either at HelloFresh or at Expedia doesn't matter so much. What would I say is it that partner marketing brings to the table? Have you been able to achieve significant results with partner marketing there? I think partner marketing is a, is a key part of any marketing mix. I can't think of, I mean, there probably are some companies that I can't think of, but all the companies I'm aware of, partner marketing or at least affiliate marketing is a key part of their overall marketing mix. And I think particularly the relatively risk-free investment, the fact that it's pure CPA-based and it's performance-based, I think makes it so attractive because it's relatively easy to test new things.

[ 00:17:16 ] I mean, I think there's also an argument that maybe testing new things in affiliate marketing is more difficult than in other marketing channels. But from a risk perspective, perspective in terms of return on advertising spend, I think it's still very attractive. You're speaking about this win-win situation that we have in the industry between the brand, the partners, and the network, basically that everybody is driving into the same direction. Everybody's striving to create results. Is that what you would say? Is the main difference between partner marketing and any other digital channel? I think it's one of the key differences. I think the other difference is also that it's more varied in terms of partner marketing. I think it's more varied because you work with different partners, you work with different, you know, you go to different types of platforms or activities where customers are, whereas I think for some of the other marketing channels.

[ 00:18:12 ] So if it's search, you know, you're addressing people that are searching for content influencers, you are potentially looking for customers that are spending the time on social. I think with affiliate marketing or partner marketing, it can be a real variety. And I think that that's what makes it also really interesting because you can address customers that might not use any of these other channels that you're already investing in. What would you say is the main strategies that you have in partner marketing now? I think the strategies, I think there's, so there's strategies around, I think the three key pillars that I see, which are recruitment, engagement and optimization. But then I think there's also strategies around increasing the operational efficiency. Yeah. So that scaling becomes more easy.

[ 00:19:14 ] And I think especially we're really looking at how can we leverage learnings from one market in other markets and expand. And so I think for us, it's really important that we also to some extent simplify or create a greater transparency so that we can share learnings across the different markets and improve the growth overall. How has that changed? Maybe now you have almost 20 years of experience. You have experience in partner marketing, right, if I calculate it right. In the beginning, when I started in the industry, transparency, tracking, data, that was all very big topics. How would you say that has changed over all these years? I think it's still a pretty big topic. I think there's also, I think, still a notion that affiliate marketing is rife with not being transparent or fraud.

[ 00:20:18 ] And I think everyone in the industry has a little bit of a part to play in that. So I think being from an advertiser side, I have certainly seen agencies or networks not necessarily highlighting issues that I think when you're then as an advertiser kind of realize that there are issues. And you identify them yourselves. I think it creates an issue sort of around trust. But I think it also makes it more difficult to advocate internally as well. So I think there is, I think transparency, I would say, is still an issue. But I think what has changed is the level of understanding, the level of the ability also to interact. Communicate with partners. I think testing is something that I don't know that we made a lot of progress within partner marketing.

[ 00:21:22 ] So when I look at other marketing channels where different type of testing, A-B testing, you know, different methods are more prevalent, I would say affiliate marketing is still, it's still a challenge sometimes because of course, you're relying on the ability of either your service, the network or the publisher as well to kind of really gather learnings. So, I would say when it comes to testing, there has been changes over the last 10 years. But I would say there are probably more greater changes in other areas of marketing. You work now with partners directly, you work with the networks, you say you have an agency. With whom do you address these topics? I think with all the parties involved, where we've made the biggest progress I think is when we work with partners directly, because some of the partners have developed ability to do, say for example, incrementality testing or to do A-B testing, but also with the networks.

[ 00:22:27 ] We have frequent conversations around how to improve the program overall and the ability to measure. Yeah. And obviously, tracking is a big part, and there are a lot of different discussions ongoing at the moment around consent management, about the implementation of the right tracking. What is your view on tracking, the implementation of the tracking, and all these conversations that are going around that? It's such an important topic, right? Because tracking is the basis of performance-based marketing. So I think it's really important. I think it's sometimes. Quite difficult to get a clear view because there are so many different, well, there's not that many different sources, but I think there are lots of different opinions. And so sometimes you hear loud voices from particularly understandably from the publisher side. Yeah.

[ 00:23:29 ] I think also from the network side. But what I can say is that from an advertiser side, we're often in a large enterprise. So we're not always in a large enterprise. So we're not always in a large enterprise. Because I think it's important to understand that the tracking doesn't necessarily sit only with our team. It also sits with the tracking team or the operations team that are looking. You have to speak to legal potentially. Exactly. We have to speak to legal potentially. And so I think it can sometimes make it difficult. I mean, it also makes it difficult that there isn't one regulator. So I think it's useful to have information from the UK regulator and from the EU, which basically said the same thing recently. But to kind of get to that point.

[ 00:24:05 ] Yeah. I think there were a lot of conversations internally as well of like, what is compliance? What can we do and what can't we not do from a legal perspective to also protect our customers? But what would help in order for you to be able to address this more internally that you have the right tracking, that you have the feeling that you have the right setup? What would you need in order to do so? I think it would be helpful to really have like an affiliate industry, almost like a white paper. Or some kind of consensus that includes the views of the networks, publishers and advertisers. And I think because even though we all want a win-win-win situation, I think there are really different perspectives.

[ 00:24:50 ] And I think it kind of requires some sort of a debate so that we can get to some level of clarity. I think what happens in the absence of it is that everyone is trying to figure it out for themselves. And comes up with different implementations, different solutions, which I think then just makes it confusing again to a lot of people because they might be moving to different companies and they see different applications when there is no clear guidance. When connecting partner marketing now to your own experience, what would you say has been the biggest learning that you made in partner marketing over all these years? What was my biggest learning? I think I would say my biggest learning was really that it's all about relationships.

[ 00:25:43 ] And that it's affiliate marketing or partner marketing, it's a big industry, but it's also a small world. And it really, I think in terms of, you know, if you're in it for the long term, it really helps to stay professional. Yeah. And do, yeah, stay professional and do a good job because you never quite know. It might be in your, it will definitely be helpful, I think, in your current job, but it might actually also kind of have an impact further down the line. I think that was my biggest learning that, you know, some people that I thought I had completely lost contact with, 10 years later somehow some opportunity comes up and you bump into the same people again. What would you say is the key strength of partner marketing?

[ 00:26:33 ] I think the key strength really for me is the fact that it's a collaborative approach. So, there are so many different parties that I think together are looking to create these win-win situations. Is that the reason why you're passionate about partner marketing? Yes. I think for me it's really that collaboration and I think also the diversity. So, that's what I really like. The fact that, you know, you get to work with different people. Different companies, different verticals, different people. I think it, to me, it's just something I really enjoy. Nice. Once you're in partner marketing, then you hardly get out, right? Yeah. That goes for both of us and many others too. Now a few, a little bit more personal questions connecting to your experiences, to your career and obviously what you're doing.

[ 00:27:27 ] What would you say is the key learning in your career that you want the listeners of us now to remember? I think for me it's, you know, you just mentioned kind of passion. I think for me one key learning is really do something that you love doing. Play to your strengths. So I think, you know, at the beginning of my career I often thought that I need to address my weaknesses, which I think we all should do as well, but it's really much better to lean into your strengths. I agree. Yes. And just knowing, knowing what your strengths are and making an impact, you know, creating value. I think to me that is the most important thing because if you create value, people will look, you know, for your support, but you know, if you're just doing your job to the minimum and it's not creating value, then I think you're not really making an impact.

[ 00:28:22 ] In the trailer for the Partner Marketing Podcast, we promise our listeners an untold story. So, is there any experience or finding or learning based on your experience that you would want to share with us that you think inspires or motivates us to develop and shape the industry further? Anything that is new? I don't think so. I wouldn't say it's new, but what I wanted to share is actually the big elephant I think in the room with affiliate marketing for me really comes around trust. You know? Affiliate and fraud. And so one story that I wanted to share because it was based on having experienced a case of fraud led to me essentially creating a strategy around how do we address and mitigate a risk from affiliate fraud and abuse.

[ 00:29:24 ] And I think it's important to say that essentially what I, what I try to do is look at the most common experiences that I've experienced over the last 20 years or so. And it's important, I think, to mention that abuse is not always created by the affiliate, right? It can also be the customer. So I think I have a lot of examples around that, but I think what, what for me was really the important or the learning from it was that creating that strategy, A, learned me to understand our program better. Kind of learn where our weaknesses are. The good news is that I think for most of the areas you're actually in control. You can eliminate a lot of those risks.

[ 00:30:09 ] And then I think it's around communication, communicating with the partners, kind of getting their buy-in, getting them to understand that actually in the long term, it really is better to resolve the issues or the, the loopholes. And internally there was nervousness around having a strategy. Yeah. And talking about fraud because we, I think naturally you don't want the leadership team to be aware of fraud happening in your channel. But actually I think having a more transparent approach also creates credibility. So when I say the elephant in the room, I think for me personally, I think it's more important to be aware of it and talk about how you can mitigate it than to pretend that it's not there. Yeah. And just let it happen. Two final thoughts.

[ 00:31:05 ] What do I think will be the key impact on partner marketing in the future? I think Google's changes to well, I think G4 had a big impact already. I think tracking is something that will have a big impact. I think because it's so foundational. Yeah. And then I also think that more brands are going to look for you know, alternative or complimentary ways of generating revenue. So I think that will also have a big impact on, you know, who's going to be a publisher. Which is a great opportunity as well at the same time, right? Obviously. And then as a last thing, your key recommendation for marketers that work with partner marketing what would you say Yeah I think it's my recommendation would be to really ask a lot of questions understand like what the company you're looking to partner with.

[ 00:32:08 ] what are they looking to achieve What is their value proposition And really ask questions to deeply understand what it is that success looks like for them and then work out you know if you can create this vision together and how you can jointly work towards those goals Very good Thank you so much Sabrina for being our guest today and for a good talk Very interesting Thank you Thank you for having me. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Partner Marketing Podcast. Stay tuned for the next session. You find us wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is produced by TLDR Studios.